The American Remake

Linda Tsai (UCLA) replied to November 19, 2006 at 9:10pm
that's interesting - i've never thought about it like that.

the only reason i've heard of speculating why hollywood remakes asian movies (prior to reading this article) was that asian movies are too deep and has many layers/meanings, so they need to be simplified for the american population (lol). i've personally not seen the american grudge 1 and 2, or the most recent "the departed" (remake of hong kong movie, Internal Affairs), but i've heard that the latter was the exact remake of the HK version - not anything better or worse - to which i remember thinking, then why the hell remake it?

now that i think about it, i don't think i've seen any remakes. maybe i'm boycotting them subconsciously. =P


Ken Yeh (Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute) wroteon November 19, 2006 at 10:35pm
When i'm watcihng movies with my friends we are not always in a normal mindstate. Delayed reaction means that one cannot read subtitles fast, and/or multi-task. Also we have ADD and refuse to read for the whole movie. But that probably only relates to the high school/college/young professional demographic.

Realistically, i believe the main reason is that foreign films get remade is alot of content gets lost by barriers of language and culture and tradition. Literal translation plain suck...and even if the subtitles are done well... alot of the saying/proverbs/allusions will be missed by american audiences. Also the simple fact is American culture is not asian culture a lot of the deep rooted meeting and aesthetic qualities of the dialogue/acting; word play, poems, metaphors, sayings, reasons why a certain character would act a certain way (ex. filial piety, loyalty), would be completely missed by American audience, especially if it is just reading words. Look at Hero, that movie ihas crazy innuedo for pro-communist thought... aka how to be a good and loyal citizen for the "greater good of the people" (i loved that film tho).

That is why they subtlely rework movies. The theme of the movie and messages are the same...but i think the dialogue is a lot more poignant and emotion evoking if it is in your native language. Be serious. When i watch asian movies, i always watch them with my parents so if i miss something they can fill me in (Crouching Tiger for example...i didn't understand the underlying philosophies). Example like how 4 means death in China, if they used that for foreshadowing...most .Americans would be like WTF i don't get it. Also i'm glad they don't dub movies anymore...the bullshit voices are more offensive than anything.

     
Ken Yeh (Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute) wroteon November 19, 2006 at 10:40pm
I guess i'll ues tihs example...i've taken spanish for 8 years. My final years of taking it i was reading books/watching movies and writing essays on them. That was difficult, but even more difficult is we had to write poetry and perform it. You immediately saw the immense difference in the american's that were wrting poetry (there bar/sentence/cadence/rhythm structures seemed like they had taken their thoughts in english and transcribed it) and the native speakers.

     
Ryan Miyata (UC Davis) replied to Ken's poston November 20, 2006 at 12:25am
Since I'm semi-qualified on the subject matter, with my newly sealed degree on film studies, I might as well offer my two cents.

Granted Americans nowadays have an allergic to any text appearing on screen, this argument, along with the inherent cultural themes particular to film's origin, do not provide sufficient evidence for this new wave of remakes.

Euphemistically, Hollywood is in search of new items.
In truth, Hollywood is creatively bankrupt and in need of opening new markets via movies remade in their image. Always has been, always will.

Films are made for both domestic and foreign markets. So the industry absorbs anything noteworthy before anyone else can make any claim.

Think of them wearing pinstripes.
Yes, they are the Yankees of media.

And just the like the Yankees, anyone signed by the machine undergoes a certain cosmetic transformation. Notice how the all of the Yankees look all trim and proper. Every player conforms to a certain image to sell to the public and for themselves.

Reverting back to films, Hollywood essentially buys the rights of guaranteed successes, replaces the cast with white actors, and resells them to Americans and foreign markets.

By now I have probably lost many by interchanging production casts with actual films but I am quite lazy at the moment. I can only write so much without boring everyone.

But for quick references, check out historical Hollywood practices, most notably German directors in the Silent Era and Hollywood's Chinese venture in the same period, and you will find quite a few consistencies. Hell, even current home distribution rights offers good supplemental knowledge.

     
Chett Lin (CSU Fullerton) replied to Ken's poston November 20, 2006 at 12:31am
I agree with Ken. An american audience would completely miss the subtleties of an asian movie unless they had someone explain it to them, which is why I love watching chinese movies so much, because I understand all the little chinese idioms, where I'm the only one in the room laughing during a scene where someone says "I'm going to see a doctor, I'm going crazy," in chinese but the translation isn't funny at all.

Though I'm really not sure about the whole "americans have to see a white blond girl on screen" thing, I really think, although the remakes end up missing a lot of the little things that add to the language and character of the movie, overall, remakes are a good idea. Not all remakes end up being too good, i.e. The Lake House which apparently screwed up the whole time paradox logic.

I have seen The Departed, which after seen the Infernal Affairs trilogy 10 times over, I would recommend my non-chinese speaking friends to watch it. Granted, Affleck and DiCaprio aren't as cool and Tony Leung and Andy Lau in the movies, and... DiCaprio always looks like he's going to cry everytime he speaks. If they watched the chinese version and the american remake, they'd understand the remake a lot better and all it's blood gorey-ness.

Everything else is pretty much summed up by Ken's post. In short, they just can't handle all the asian-ness.

     
Ken Yeh (Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute) replied to Ryan's poston November 20, 2006 at 10:14am
A) they resell to foreign markets becasue somehow the world thinks our artistic products are superior. Look at any form of music in japan/china...honestly the music in asian countries sounds like a generation behind american's. Example early metallica (and earlier rock bands), ainfluenced the fast anime metal type guitar songs that one would see in most anime fight scenes. Michael Jackson is an idol in asia. Tracy McGrady's jersey outsells yao mings in his native country. Everyone draws ideas from other people and then puts their own personal spin on them...thats the point of ideas, not to abstrusely keep them in your head.

B) An example in breakdancing (an artform)...Back in the day koreans had their own style of breakdancing...basically acrobatic stuff/crazy power moves. Now everyone that breaks in Korea acts/dances like they are from NY, with fast and aggresive looking top rock and footwork. It should be noted that every region of the world (and america) do have subtle differences in how they dance. So then Is it copying/copyright infringement/racism? I don't think so... i am more lenient when it comes to plagiarism...There is too fine a line. Basically copying is not exactly copying...there has to be subtle differences. Because otherwise i could not say that infernal affairs was better than the departed (i liked the music and cinematogrophy, and it didn't have Leo).

C) Movies in general are out of ideas. How many more underdog movies, "American dream" movies, feel good stories, gangster flicks, romantic comedies, mindless action where the hero gets the glory and women are gonna come out before shit gets played out. I mean to be honest most genres that are "American" at root and produced in major studios cannot really bring anything new to the table its been too long...just different characters, slightly different plot twists. Borat was refreshing because it was so Poliitically incorrect it was excellent. Also like the music industry they are very formulaic when devising movies...it goes along the lines of this -
1. superficialness - Hot women/men.
2 playing on people fantasies - every man wants to be a badass, every girl wants to be the center of attention and/or get the badass to recognize her
3. Some human interest story like...white man and black man get along, white man and asian man get along, asian man and black man get along, women and men found compatible...
4. Being the underdog that wins
5. (And on the backburner) the story.

I'd have to say that is like 80% of the movies have been created to this mold. That is because the whole underdog theory is the American Dream...It is probably the only thing that is a part of American culture.

     
Alvin Lin (MIT) replied to Ryan's poston November 20, 2006 at 1:41pm
I personally think that if Hollywood is going to remake Asian films, mostly just to replace Asian characters with Caucasian ones, they should give better credits to the Asian creators. I can't tell you how many people love 'The Departed' and have absolutely no idea it came from 'Infernal Affairs', as well as how liberally it borrowed from it.

     
Alvin Lin (MIT) replied to Chett's poston November 20, 2006 at 4:26pm
Chett, however oftentimes it's not even cultural subtleties, but simply re-writing the same story and having Caucasian actors play the parts instead of releasing the Asian version.

     
Ryan Miyata (UC Davis) replied to Ken's poston November 21, 2006 at 11:01pm
I don't know what to say, quite frankly. I believe we have reached an absolute stalemate after reading your first point. American corporations do not aggressively open new markets in foreign countries? This is news to me. Must be corporate in origin.

     
Gary Huang (Berkeley) replied to Ken's poston November 22, 2006 at 12:46pm
A) There is a HUGE difference between borrowing ideas from a source and complete copying from a source. Yes, a great deal of music from Asia is borrowed from the West, but they're not the exact same songs. Even for someone like Sam Hui, who basically took Western music and sang Chinese instead of English, you KNEW that he was taking it from American/British sources. And if you were to say that Asia copies from America, then you can also say that ALL modern music (including rock) is based off of music created by African Americans-jazz.

B) The Departed was 98% the same as Infernal Affairs (with 1% being the actors and the other 1% being slight plot changes). It took elements from the entire Infernal Affairs trilogy, and Scorsese, Di Caprio, and Damon have the gall to say that it's NOT a remake?!? "Oh, we read the script, but that's it. We didn't watch the movie until after The Departed was made." Hm...reading the script and copying almost everything from the original...not a remake? That is COMPLETE disrespect to all of Asia, basically.

C) I have yet to see ONE Western movie that was remade in China, where the director and actors denied that it was a remake. In fact, there are almost no remakes of movies from the West. If you go to Asia, some of the biggest box office winners are Western movies that use subtitles and star Caucasian actors. Now, why is that, you may ask? In my opinion, that has to do with 1) Media influence, 2) Western dominance in the world and Asians having an inferiority complex when comparing themselves to Caucasians. I mean, the arguments about "Not being able to understand other cultures" and "subtle cultural effects making/breaking the movie" is absolute garbage. Which culture doesn't understand good guy beating the bad guy? Which culture can't appreciate surprising plot twists, firefights, and dramatic effects? You're telling me that it's ok for Asians to read subtitles from Western movies that star white actorss and not understand a few cultural differences, but it's NOT ok for white Americans to watch Asian movies with subtitles and Asian actors?!? That's freakin' racist!

And lastly, the "American Dream" is a dream for people from all parts of the world. Which poor person in the world doesn't dream to work hard and become successful?

     
Rick Pascual (VCU) replied to Gary's poston November 25, 2006 at 4:11am
Good point Gary. It pisses me off too. I'm almost up to my neck with all this Western nonsense. I hate this form of Cultural Imperialism. There should really be some form of action. If not in America - it should be dealt with in Asia.

     
Rick Pascual (VCU) replied to Zack's poston November 25, 2006 at 12:39pm
I'm up for that. I won't watch the movie. I've been paying less and less attention to Hollywood films. Do you know where I can get the Japanese movie?

     
Annie Duong replied to Gary's poston November 27, 2006 at 6:28am
I'm angry along the same vein. Even IF one didn't consider Americans remaking Asian movies, they still don't have enough balls to put in Asian actors who could speak their lines in (unbroken) English, not in remakes, not even in original (heh) American films. Because, you know, all the symbolism behind putting Asians into a media besides porn and journalism.

     
Ken Yeh (Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute) wroteon November 27, 2006 at 7:07am
The line between copying in borrowing is so fine that it is ridiculous and not even worth fighting over. Yah biting sucks (in the Departed's case, mad articles/tv shows stated how it was a remake) buts its gonna happen because some people are not talent ass clowns, some people want to pay homage but like to steal credit, people are scumbags. So whether you like it or not it will happen. What movies has Damon been in that were good anyways...he hasn't had a hit since Good Will Hunting...of course hes gonna toot his own horn. And dicaprio...well...his career is pretty much sank like the titanic after titanic to this movie.

I do agree black people are inventors of most modern music. Most rhythm patterns of drums are based of their tribal drumming/syncopation. That being said...just cuz they created the drum patterns that means no one else can use it afterwards without giving homage?? Can european people only create classical music, can chinese people only play that guitar like instrument, can irish people only play the bagpipes, etc. etc. etc. Then everyone has been guilty of this, be serious.

Real heads (in this case...pepole who really enjoy movies) will know what is up in, you can't expect most people to be real cuz that is unrealistic. What this silly sentence means is that....most people don't care of origins cuz entertainment is entertainment. Also fans of the departed will most likely watch Infernal affairs based on that statement.

     
Alvin Lin (MIT) replied to Ken's poston November 27, 2006 at 7:29am
Uncle Tom Ken: What if White people let Blacks perform their music in small venues or radio stations, but MTV and global media remade those jazz, rap, and hip-hop songs and music videos with White singers and artists?

The biggest problem I have with you is you still don't believe that entertainment these days is just as influential as the advertising that sandwiches it. You continually refuse to acknowledge any sort of problem or racism, so again I ask you: why do you keep posting here if you don't even think the issues of this group are a big deal?

     
Ken Yeh (Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute) wroteon November 27, 2006 at 8:48am
Alvin first off they do..Justin timberlake is the biggest michael jackson biter ever. That being said...his beats are amazing (cough Neptunes/Timbaland cough). Look in music it is already broadening. The legendary DJ Premier did Christina Aguileras latest album. White people always get undue props when they do black music. Eminem is dope, but i don't consider him one of the five greatest like every white person does.

I keep posting cuz i think it is you and many people in this group that are brainwashed. For real. And what you are doing is ultimately damaging Asian reputation in America infiinitely more than helping by winning a minor battle. Its the same reason i hate asian fraternities. They have mixer events once a year with another non-asian fraternity/sorority and never speak to them again. What is the point? Or when they have white people interested in joining/pledging they do everything in their power to have them depledge...but for some reason don't mind when it is a minority. I hate brainwashed people. Honestly I really think media is bullshit. Advertising is bullshit. Physchology is bullshit. Because individual perception is still malleable. You can't spend your time on trying to convince an AR/Media corporation to like you, when you have this defensive angry stance about blah blah blah media causes all my problems. It causes more hate. You gotta let some stuff go.

Also Asians don't have it bad...black people had it the worst and still do. Don't believe me...drive late at night with some black friends and see what happens now that some real racism.

     
Alvin Lin (MIT) replied to Ken's poston November 27, 2006 at 9:34am
"Letting stuff go" as you put it, solves nothing. And no matter how much you think advertising, psychology, or entertainment "is bullshit" as you say, the fact is that it works and affects mass society and the way hundreds of millions of people think.

You harp on specific faults of some Asian people as a way to somehow justify why nobody should care at all. I keep calling you an Uncle Tom as an analogy, because you sound like a historical passive Black slave who doesn't lift a finger for the Black movement or emancipation, yet will probably shut up once the fruits of labor come to bear. The best thing for Asian-Americans and progress is to ignore people who share your passive attitude, in my opinion.

     
Alvin Lin (MIT) wroteon February 11, 2007 at 6:55pm
I heard Moynahan is nominated for a Screenwriting Oscar for 'Departed'. Now, he's working on a script for 'Departed 2', which is a prequel to 'Departed'. (Wait a second, isn't that just like Infernal Affairs 2!?)

     
Gary Huang (Berkeley) replied to Alvin's poston February 12, 2007 at 10:58am
Hahaha, at least Scorsese acknowledged Andy Lau (the director) for Infernal Affairs in the Golden Globes, even though he pronounced Andy's last name "Law" or something. Before, Scorsese, Damon, and Di Caprio said in interviews that 'The Departed' is nothing like 'Infernal Affairs'. I mean...just because you read the script for IA before making 'Departed', and the plot follows IA almost exactly doesn't mean anything, right?

     
Alvin Lin (MIT) wroteon May 27, 2007 at 5:34pm
.....

     
Jessica Lee (UCSD) replied to Gary's poston May 27, 2007 at 6:22pm
actually they are really different films. Same storyline/scenes/plot, different interpretation. It's a remake yea, but its also a reinterpretation. The whole feel of the two films are drastically different.

But of course the original interpretation is way cooler.

     
Matthew Messer (Detroit, MI) wroteon May 27, 2007 at 9:05pm
I would have to agree that Hollywood remakes of Asian films with little to no credit given to the source is a form of cultural imperialism. Though having said that, I don't see it being forced down anyone's throat. I guess capitalism then too must be a form of cultural imperialism.

     
Brianna Forster (UCLA) replied to Alvin's poston May 27, 2007 at 9:51pm
This is a great article.

There were even a few more points they could have mentioned:

1) Can you name any Asian females who have played lead roles in American-made movies? The only one I can think of is Lucy Liu, who is half-Asian and has a body type more typical of a white woman.

2) Even Asian female characters are being played by white women, e.g. Chun Li and almost the entire cast of the DoA movie.

     
Kao Xiong (St. Cloud) replied to Brianna's poston May 27, 2007 at 10:16pm
Lucy Liu is only half-Asian...??? 0_o


Anyways, let me revise your first question; can you named an Asian female that plays a leading role or any role without being so stereotypically seen and used as a sex puppet for white/black actors.

     
Hans Lo (Michigan) replied to Kao's poston May 28, 2007 at 12:12am
Michelle Krusiec :D

Granted it was for an independant movie.

and no, Lucy Liu is not half asian -_-

And on the main topic... Hollywood has run out of ideas, pure and simple. I don't really think its a question of imperialism.

     
Robby Cheng replied to Alvin's poston May 29, 2007 at 2:07pm
you know though... all the remakes are horribly done. asian horror films are the best because they created that story. america should just stick to their zombie movies.

     
Alvin Lin (MIT) wroteon June 12, 2007 at 5:51am
To add info from a new thread, now 'My Sassy Girl' is being remade...

     
Pranav Razdan (FSU) wroteon June 12, 2007 at 8:55am
The Ring is a remake of a Japanese film, apparentyl some ppl knew about its origins but I doubt many. I agree it's stupid not to promote the original after all, Film is art and should be treated as it. Hollywood cars more about money now as opposed to lets say Japan with films by Kurosawa however he did retell hamlet as a Japanese story in Throne of Blood. The magnificent seven was bas based on Kurosawa's Seven Samurai. Cultural excahange is good but box office thrillers are pushing the industry.

some amazing films are not the big budget ones but those that tell a good tale. the middle east has produced some great films that I've been meaning to see such as Turtles can Fly & The Syrian Bride. They are based around the political comfits ppl are dealing which puts some amazing emotions in the film like 'Paradise Now'-about Palestinian suicide bomber-watch it really good.


Sherman Wong (HKU) replied to Pranav's poston June 12, 2007 at 3:43pm
Oh speaking of Akira Kurosawa, his Ran which I just ordered on Amazon is apparently inspired by King Lear, another Billy Shakespeare yarn.

And of course...Star Wars was also inspired by Seven Samurai!!!

From Wiki:

(Seven Samurai's) influence can be most strongly felt in the western The Magnificent Seven, a film specifically adapted from Seven Samurai. Director John Sturges took Seven Samurai and updated it to the Old West, with the Samurai replaced with cowboys. Many of The Magnificent Seven's scenes mirror those of Seven Samurai in most details, and the final line of dialogue is nearly identical: "The old man was right. Only the farmers won. We lost. We always lose." There was also a short-lived 1998 television series based on Sturges' film.

George Lucas states in the DVD commentary for Star Wars Episode III, that Yoda's running his hand over his head (like Kambei) is a nod to Kurosawa and this movie. Also the line about the farmers lot in life is to suffer is quoted in Star Wars (New Hope) but as droids.

     
Alvin Lin (MIT) wroteon October 31, 2007 at 12:41pm
To celebrate Hallowen, Imeem has partnered up with Palm Pictures to bring you Oxide and Danny Pang's 2002 supernatural thriller The Eye. It's about a woman who receive corneal transplant surgery that restores her sight... and gives her horrible visions. It's pretty creepy, and really well made. View it the full movie here now through November 4th. Oh, by the way, it has subtitles, so deal with it. And yes, there is a Hollywood remake of this movie starring Jessica Alba due out next year. Do yourself a favor and watch the original online or on DVD.

http://palmpictures.imeem.com/
http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1809824029/info

     
Nkao Yang (St. Cloud) wroteon October 31, 2007 at 1:11pm
i hate remakes.....at first i was like whatever..b/c the Ring and the Grudge wasnt that good...but when i found out they were remaking Infernal Affairs....OH HELL NO!!!!!!!!!! and then I found out they were planning to remake Old Boy.....OH HELL NO again!!!! and then The Eye..which is my fav horror film...i was literally saying: FU hollywood!!!

i personally think Americans are too lazy to read subtitles!!! and i do agree with the article...and i hate the fact thet Naomi Watts' career became great after she did Ring....but i did like her dress in the ending of King Kong..

i can understand that white people wont be able to understand asian culture..but so far the movies that they have remade...could be easily understood by non-asians...i mean look at the Grugde!!! it took place IN Japan..but the lead actress HAD to be white!!! what the f*** is up with that!! i remember watching this tv show..and the director of the Grugde said that he wanted it to be in Japan still b/c it adds more mysterious-ness to the film..since its in a foreign land...

and now my sassy girl........no one can act like JJH...she was superb...i bet they are going to plan to make a Windstruck...

     
Kao Xiong (St. Cloud) replied to Alvin's poston October 31, 2007 at 1:51pm
Already seen the Asian version of "the eye..."

Jessica Alba is going to kill this movie...

     
Steve Hojiminy (Houston, TX) wroteon October 31, 2007 at 3:18pm
Hollywood uses white casts in remakes of Asian movies because they don't think white American audiences can accept a film with a predominantly non-white cast. It's really that simple.

     
Nkao Yang (St. Cloud) replied to Kao's poston October 31, 2007 at 3:38pm
i KNOW!!!! love jessica...but she is just not right for the role!!!!

     
Alvin Lin (MIT) wroteon November 30, 2007 at 12:27pm
There have been 20+ remakes (basically copies) of Asian films over the past 10 years or are in production.

How is this not cultural imperialism?
It's basically intercepting nonWhite cultures and making it your own, not giving credit to the creators, trying to maintain cultural supremacy.

     
Margaret Tran replied to Alvin's poston December 1, 2007 at 7:53pm
You forget Quentin Tarantino. Reverred as a creative genius in the Western cinema, but despised by Asians. Note all the elements he stole from Asian films, particularly in Kill Bill 1 and 2. And Resevoir Dogs? Ripped off from HK film City On Fire (admitted by Tarantino to be one of his favourite films).

And let's not forget his role in introducing Asian films to Western audiences (cue Hero and Iron Monkey). Is this the only way for Asian films to be distributed to a Western audience..?

Cultural imperialism, Alvin? *nods*

Oh and this picture disgusts me in ways never thought possible - http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=33833210&op=1&o=all&view=all&subj=2204297134&aid=-1&id=3315683

Clearly, I don't like Quentin Tarantino hahah.

     
James Chou replied to Margaret's poston December 1, 2007 at 8:16pm
I heard they were going to remake Joint Security Area with Mexican border guards

      Reply to JamesReport

Post deleted on December 19, 2007 at 8:33pm
Post #42
Alvin Lin (MIT) wroteon January 28, 2008 at 9:23pm
http://mit.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2214375888&topic=6078

     
Edwin Hc Lee (Vancouver, BC) wroteon January 28, 2008 at 9:36pm
Typical Western Imperialism mentality:

"If we they don't understand it, Kill it!"

Seriously I have no problem with reading subs in foreign movies (even non-asian) I prefer movies with the original language too because it's better to have the right tones and expressions get lost. And if I didn't understand anything I would like to learn.

People should be more open minded. Not everything revolves around Hollywood.

Keep in mind, a high percentage of human communication is read through body language, text and speech alone is not sufficient enough.

     
Alvin Lin (MIT) wroteon February 20, 2008 at 10:17am
add 'my sassy girl' to the list of asian people so happy that whites like their work and aren't offended by any sort of cultural imperialism that may take place in remaking over a dozen asian films with mostly nothing changed except ethnicity

     
Julian Chan (University of Toronto) replied to Alvin's poston February 20, 2008 at 11:03am
Hollywood is running out of ideas XD

     
Linda Yan (Wellesley) replied to Alvin's poston February 20, 2008 at 11:40pm
Alvin, give it a rest.

I don't agree with everything that Kevin says, and I think he does underplay the racial issues inherent in media, but could you lay off the hostility?

Ken's input is valuable, because he's got an alternative view that incorporates a broader range of issues in media representation that can go hand-in-hand, work at cross-purpose, or are completely separate from the racial issue. Even though the group is about the representation of the Asian race in media, it's not completely separate from the other huge factors that underlie the industry.

As Asian-Americans, we're in an interesting position right now, as a very small racial minority in the US that nevertheless is the largest racial group in the world. It's a very interesting juxtaposition that makes us aware of the inequalities we face, and that self-knowledge is very powerful. Despite this, unrealistic expectations and an overly confrontational style is detrimental to getting our voices heard.

I quote Ken: "You can't spend your time on trying to convince an AR/Media corporation to like you, when you have this defensive angry stance about blah blah blah media causes all my problems. It causes more hate. You gotta let some stuff go." Notice--he says "SOME" stuff, not "ALL" stuff, and I think there's a great deal of truth in letting some issues slide in the interest of advancing the larger problem at hand.


My problem with you, Alvin, is that you jump on anyone with a more moderate position and insult them by literally calling them traitors to their race. "Uncle Tom", "just admit you're just another one of those Asian girls with a white boyfriend"--these are just as fucking judgmental and insulting as any racial epithet hurled my way.

Look, let's make this very clear on the outset: I'm just as interested and angry at the unrealistic portrayals of our race in American media. I wouldn't be up at 2:30 AM catching up on the posts I missed today if I wasn't.

However, I believe that (1) different viewpoints strengthen, instead of weaken, our position since we can argue against them, because these are the arguments mainstream America will levy at us, (2) an angry, defensive, vitriol-laden approach is more damaging than helpful, and (3) name-calling is childish.

Stop it with the attitude. We can discuss this constructively.

Oh, and I remember that some members of the Black Panther Movement considered Martin Luther King Jr. passive and not committed enough. Perspective.

     
Alvin Lin (MIT) replied to Linda's poston February 21, 2008 at 1:00am
[My problem with you, Alvin, is that you jump on anyone with a more moderate position]

You have NO idea what you are talking about, 'moderate position'? Anyone who has read Ken Yeh's comments here for over one year now knows he is in no way moderate, his mentality is very Uncle Tom'ish and passive.

As for yourself, there are more than a few posts by yourself I've considered moronic and borderline insane or brainwashed, but I've laid off because there are certain over-sensitive people here who would generalize it as female bashing.

     
Ken Yeh (Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute) replied to Alvin's poston February 21, 2008 at 5:57am
i disagree. i think you are extremely radical. i call out when it needs to be called out. i don't nit pick.

     
Ken Yeh (Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute) replied to Alvin's poston February 21, 2008 at 6:05am
Also i think you make racial issue out of stuff that is not neccesarily racial. A lot of the stuff you point out is very interesting to read but many times it is WAY more complex than just race.

I do have a problem with the view that everything is racist. Also unlike you i never made fun of my race for acceptance, i always was me. Hence i can see why we don't really see eye to eye on anything...i was never on the other side.

     
Edwin Hollins (E. Illinois) wroteon February 21, 2008 at 6:07am
lol sorry Linda but I have to agree with Alvin on that one

     
Linda Yan (Wellesley) replied to Linda's poston February 21, 2008 at 11:55am
I noticed you didn't respond to the majority of my post, which centered around actual issues like the presence of other, non-racial forces in media production, and a less confrontation approach. Instead, you reacted by only attacking my personal response to you, calling my posts "moronic" and "brainwashed."

Tell me, was that last post moronic and brainwashed? If so, how?

     
Thomas Tu replied to Linda's poston February 21, 2008 at 11:57am
Lol.

Lol @ Linda puttin the work on Alvin.

     
1 reply
Linda Yan (Wellesley) replied to Thomas's poston February 21, 2008 at 12:28pm
I respect Alvin, I really do. I think he's one of the driving forces behind why this group is so active, and he's right on the money on a lot of topics. I admire his passion and political activism. Actually, it's kind of hot, LOL.

Thanks to ANBWBM, I've learned a lot, and I'm trying to spread the AAM love around (changed my friend's mind about "all" Asian men being effeminate, yes!) in addition to re-examining my own stance on issues.

I just really hate being attacked on my personal character and always feeling like I need to preface with "these are all the reasons why I'm not brainwashed."

Okay, so I need to work on being more aware. Great! Tell me where exactly I went wrong. Don't call me a white-washed, self-hating, white-worshipping Uncle Tom. It pisses me off, and I forget all the "rules of constructive debate" and start getting nasty, and respond in kind, which is not helpful.

     
Alvin Lin (MIT) replied to Linda's poston February 22, 2008 at 8:26am
[I think he's one of the driving forces behind why this group is so active]

Well this makes sense since I am the *creator* of the group.

[Tell me where exactly I went wrong.]

I'll give you a recent example. Kimble said something about how offensive it is to see young Asian girls with unattractive old White guys, then you came out of nowhere with some BS like 'women aren't property' or some stupid ass comment along those lines. It's not even related to what he was talking about, his point is about how it is offensive that Asians have self hate or White worship and thus have disproportionate attractiveness pairings these days with certain White social predators, then you turn it around and sound like an brainwashed AA feminist, the kind who hates on Asian men and says stupid ass crap like 'women aren't property' and probably also bring up foot binding, when this isn't even what that person is talking about in the first place.

     
Ike Mao (Olin) replied to Alvin's poston February 22, 2008 at 8:48am
Alvin: [then you turn it around and sound like an brainwashed AA feminist, the kind who hates on Asian men and says stupid ass crap like 'women aren't property' and probably also bring up foot binding]

Linda: [I'm controller for my school's sex conference, and I thought it was past time the issue of AAMs was brought up.]

[I'm trying to spread the AAM love around (changed my friend's mind about "all" Asian men being effeminate, yes!)]

[God, women like that give AA feminists a bad name. I feel sorry for the lecturer. And dude, there are books that "blame foot binding on Chinese men in America"?! Last time I checked,the majority of Asian immigration to the US was AFTER foot-binding stopped. Get me the name of this book--not only is it racist, it's historically dyslexic, LOL!]

[This is fucking FANTASTIC:

"I think the reason why a lot of Asian American women are unaware on this issue is privilege–the privilege of being seen as a desirable human being."]

Let's see... Linda finds AAMs attractive and is spreading the word, thinks the foot binding argument is idiotic crap, and agrees that AAFs have certain privileges over AAMs.

From what I can see, you two agree on most points. Linda is just saying that people would be more receptive to a nicer tone. (Then again, I think Americans have a strange fixation on pretending to be nice, but that's another discussion entirely.)

     
Alvin Lin (MIT) wroteon May 26, 2008 at 11:17am
Dragonball, Akira, Speed Racer, The Departed, My Sassy Girl, The Ring, '21', the list goes on and on.

     
Edwin Hc Lee (Vancouver, BC) replied to Linda's poston May 26, 2008 at 11:55am
Hold on to that Idea because that is also true, that's the second reason if it isn't race related haha